We're arguing over smacking the kids
Me and the wife have just started to argue a lot over smacking the kids. We have two boys – 6 & 9. It never used to happen but she recently went on one of these sessions to talk about how to bring up children at the local leisure centre and she’s now come back saying what we’ve both been doing for the last umpteen years is all wrong. Most of the time the boys are fairly well behaved – and I wouldn’t say I am heavy handed – but the occasional smack has always kept them in good order and helps set and maintain healthy boundaries. They are two great lads and we are both very proud of them. Most of my mates say they smack their kids so I don’t feel I’m doing anything wrong or out of the ordinary. But now my wife is saying things like “you are abusing them” and making out that I’m some sort of monster! Am I breaking the law? What right have these people running these sorts of courses got in causing distress to me and my wife? More importantly how can I get our relationship back on track and stop us rowing about it all? Help....
Comments
The worst thing that has ever happened to the family and the world in general is the single mother. (Sounds like littlemissunderstood eh?). Not divorced. Not widowed. BUT those women who conciously DID NOT want a man in a committed relationship. Who for whatever reason, only wanted her own selfish biological and emotional desires fufilled by having a baby "before it was too late", OR even worse, for profit aka' benefits. But whether rich or poor, to deny a baby a father and a traditional two=parent upbringing is crueler than ANY smack on the backside. It's a "smack-down" from the beginning of LIFE!!!
When I see these "kids from hell"/parents can't cope and need help reality shows, the common thread is more often "Mom and sometimes Dad" are too immature themselves to raise children. They seem so powerless. But I see more cases of where Dad comes home from work and the wife is such a LIMPIT when it comes to boundaries and discipline, he comes off as the bad parent for trying to restore order.
Those that resented their parents discipline, from what I've heard here, probably will never get it and we in society will bear the brunt of their ill-disciplined off-spring when those become old enough to rob, maim, and kill other people.
"SPARE---THE---ROD and SPOIL....THE....CHILD!!!". If you can't obey God on that THEN don't have children!
Hey Buddy! Define exactly what u mean by smack, then tie it to a specific infraction and I'll try to tell u whether its abuse or not. OK?
My mother smacked me with shoes, hands and spoons almost daily. She smacked me when I was framed by my elder sibs, cause she was in a bad mmood, because she was stressed about stuff which had nothing to do with me. She was a nutter, and although I could say she was an abuser, she will never get me to see myself as a victim. Doo u get that?
Eventually I refused to look into her eyes and listen to her, and I could block her smacks and ignore them. The smacks went higher and higher until I had no choice but to knee her, kick her, and punch her to get her to back off. I was told I was a wicked and evil monster for defending myself.
That is extreme, but I am sure she thinks to this day it was just a little 'harmless' smacking.
So give me some real specifics buddy otherwise I would have to say for safety- keep your hands off.
daveangel.
In regards to your question about how you can stop arguing instead of saying something along the lines of; 'we have done it this long why change now?' Ask what other options she suggests. There is always something else that might work just as well. You have to cater it to each child though. Taking away their fav thing for a set time or the naughty corner for example.
Personally I don’t think smacking is bad BUT it is only acceptable if it comes with an explanation of why they are having the punishment. Otherwise they won’t necessarily learn. I remember being smacked after staying out to late once. I was hugged told that my parents had worried about me and why (kidnapping etc) and then I was smacked and told that I knew better than to stay out past my curfew. I dont remember it hurting I was so much more upset by their reaction.
I'm a youth worker, and would like to throw in my view point. I have spent six years working with some of the most problemed teenagers, and I can tell you now, firstly, that the youth of today are no different from 300 years ago, but if you believe the hyped up young people bashing that the Daily Mail, Sun, and Broadsheets is piping then you'll believe they are worse. 300 years ago, young people were making the broadsheets for hanging round on street corners, and guess what, nothing has changed.
In my experience, unruly teenagers have absolutely no discipline at home, no rule setting and in cases of violent teenagers, usually violent family role models. Its worth pointing out that whether you smack your children or not, it is the other discipline around this that will dictate your childs future, along with a huge number of other factors. A gentle smack for misdemeanours delivered in a calm way is unlikely to emotionally scar young people, judging from my experiences; albeit remembering guys that you don't always know your own strength, and like the person above who accidentally hurt their child, can suffer grave consequences. Its important to realise that smacking is one of a range of disciplining methods, the other ones being the most effective, 99% of the time. Smacking will not railroad children, nor the absence of...but learn a range of good parenting techniques. Why not try different methods with your wife and decide whats most effective?
This subject is such an emotive one and there isn't a single answer but here's my two pennies worth!
The fact that arguing over the subject to such an extend is an indication of your passion, that can be a good thing because you are passionate to get it right for your children. That's who is imnportant on this issue.
Have you asked your children what they think about it? I don't know how old they are but I usually explain to my children what/why they have done is wrong and then agree with them that a punishment is (or isn't ) appropriate. they often come up with some good ideas. Like not being allowed on the trampoline for a day, no TV, not allowed to the park or 'writing a letter of apology' to the hurt person and signing it. If they have had to make a contribution to the punishment it means thay have a better understanding of why it is necessary. Writing a letter of apology can be really useful because they have to sit and think about how they might have hurt their sibling/parent etc. That one usually ends up with a cuddle and everyone feels better.
About every six weeks We have family conferences! I know it sounds a bit American but it's great. One of the children writes the agenda and the other one takes minutes. Everyone is allowed to speak and then we come up with a plan. We talk about all sorts of stuff we're all struggling with. Helping the children to come up with solutions is a really good life skill. And sometimes they come up with things we wouldn't have thought of. We started this when they were aged 9 and11, they feel valued and included. We all sign the agreements when we have finished and put them on the notice board as a reminder.
Hope things are better for the original poster by now (it's a year on!) but hope others are also finding some ideas useful.
Kathy
OMG that is abuse, and actually worse than smacking! How do people get away with this sort of stuff?
I knew another person who sandpapered his children's bums and said it worked a treat!
My Dad had a novel way that didn't involve smacking-but made sure i received a very sore bottom when i needed it!, he would place me across his lap and with a small piece of sandpaper would rub my bare bottom, hard, for 20-30 seconds, it wasn't too bad at first but a few minutes after my bum felt like it was on fire!. Then the corner and i said "sorry Daddy" with my poor red sore and burning like mad bottom..waving it about to cool it down!!. After about half an hour he offered cream (which was embarrassing having to poke my bare bum out to my Dad as he applied cream-but anything to stop the stinging!!. I remembered it a week after as it was still sore. I learnt by it and obeyed him, i wanted a cuddle afterwards and it was effective.
My mum used to wollop me and my sister, looking back it was physical abuse as far as i'm concerned. I was terrified of making her angry because of what would follow. I hate her for it. My dad would on occasion smack me too but he stopped when i asked him if it made him happy!! I have a 12 year old son and have NEVER smacked him. It's you and your wife who are angry by what the kids have done, you need to think of other ways to disciplin them, like no tv/computer/sweets etc for a day. count to 25 if they are naughty and you leave the room till you've calmed down. They are children they don't know any better. I still get upset when i think about my childhood, i'm 30 now. Don't let your children remember their childhood like this. It will scar them.
If you want your children to fear you then carry on but they will lose all respect for you once they get older and rebell even more in there teens. It's not right to smack your children, there are plenty of other ways to discipline a child. There kids now but they will get older and wiser, your teaching them to be violent... No wonder why there are so many bullies in school.
I am a "real parent" and I believe you should never need to smack your child.
I have never smacked or raised a hand to my daughter and I am very proud of the way she is. Your child should have enough respect for you that they know by your tone when they have gone too far.
You shouldn't need to resort to hitting a child, it's an easy way out for people who can't be bothered to discipline their children properly and gain enough respect to be listened to.
As a parent if it got to the stage where I felt I had to hit my daughter to keep her from doing something naughty, I would seriously question myself!
I've read a few of these posts and everyone is always going to have their different views. Everyone in my family has always been brought up with a smack if they did something that they knew was really wrong and we all seem to be good, happy people now. I do believe that some of the trouble we have with kids today is that they don't have anything to be scared of therefore they do whatever the hell they want. Obviously its not a nice thought scaring your kids but its about showing authority in a way that works for the individual families. However, the issue is that you and your wife are falling out about it which must be hard. Maybe you could try and come up with a plan of discipline that you can both stick to and see if that works, maybe you'll find that there are alternatives that work which will make you all happy.
The occasional slap ? Why did you do that? what will a child learn from that? Would you smack your dog? I have smacked my child and am deeply ashamed of it. I did it when I was at my lowest point. I would not smack them on purpose and with fore thought. Think about it ,What purpose is there in smacking a child a dog or your wife or anyone for that matter. viloence is not the answer that teaches a child power always wins. The thug is master? Be civilised be an example to be proud of be a responsible parent.
Is it so wrong that your wife has tried to improve her parenting skills? She is educating herself that there are options. Is that such a bad thing? Or should we have never learnt and still kept beating our children and locking them in basements like they did 100 years ago.
I don't think these "people" from the course have come into your home and tried to tell you what to do. Your wife went to it volunantarily to improve her knowledge on the subject of parenting.
Why are you so adverse to hearing about other options? If you found out that you could have handled those situations just as effectively without hitting your child does that make you feel uncomfortable and guilt. So to not feel like that, best to not even think about it.
Get you head out of the sand. Parenting is an ongoing journey that we should view as something that can always be improved.
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Hi LittlemissconfusedI'm with you on this one. Smacking is unaccepatable - full stop. All it represents is a lack of self control and awareness of other, more effective and positive parenting techniques on the behalf of the parents who do it. Children do learn things from smacking - but not how to learn positive behaviours.
I beleive littlemissconfused that your perception of smacking is different from the majority of posts on this site. I was smacked by my dad when I crossed boundaries but I knew in my heart it was because he cared about me and I was shown and felt loved any other time. I am now a well balanced professional adult. You didn't mention your behaviour but perhaps your dad did cross the line if you were so badly affected by his "smacking" and was scared of him but I feel more strongly that underlying issues with your dad were the cause of your bad rationship and not the smacking itself. It simply just did not work in your case. I have 2 children my son is 12 and was smacked occaisionally when he was young, he is a carefree happy lad and has needed nothing more than a talking to for years in terms of discipline. My daughter is 6 and a terror and I realised quickly that smacking did not work for her or I would be at it all day! It is up to the parent to discipline their children as they see fit as long as the parents are aware of their boundaries.
Im not a confused person. I was smacked as a child and i certainly dont intend to treat my child like that I grew up resenting my dad for it and we never had a relationship because of this, he is no longer with us but how i wish things had of been different i so wanted a dad that I didnt feel scared to be with.
I have never hit my own child and she has never hit anyone else. that tells me that im doing it the right way for her.
Sounds as though youre the one who is confused!
You obviously can't see the difference between correction/discipline and abuse.
I have been with my child in the playgym. He thumped another toddler for no apparent reason so I smacked him firmly on the hand and told him off. He knew all too well that daddy was cross and the difference between what he had done and the smack he had received.
He never thumped another child again and he is now 9.
what sort of an example are you to your children ? that its ok to hit /smack whatever you wanna call it its all the same.. violence! .
I see that it is mostly dads that have replied and agreed with the main person on this matter however think of this.. your in a playgym your child hits another child you say no thats naughty and you mustnt hit people. which i hope is you you guys would say. Then you smack your child for doing something wrong how does your child no what is right or wrong one minute your telling them its not ok to hit but then you hit them thus making them think that it is. its just totally confusing. there are better ways and not through hitting.
The legal guidance offered in the two above posts may be informative for some users of this site.
The constant demand on parents is to help children to learn to manage their feelings and behaviours in a way that values and respects the individuality and uniqueness of themselves and others. Celebrating the delights of children encourages them to blossom and fosters the joy of parenting. In the Check It Out section of this site there are several articles - just click on the Parenting tag - aimed at helping parents to find the way the right way for them to parent their children.
This last post is outdated and not relevant to anyone living in England as it is Scottish law. Hopefully it will be removed/amended by the forum administrators/moderators as it is not applicable for this site.
Here is what the law for ENGLAND actually says along with a helpful intepretation from the CHILDREN'S LEGAL CENTRE -
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2004/ukpga_20040031_en_1
http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/OneStopCMS/Core/CrawlerResourceServer.aspx?resource=40A9C9D9-9FA3-465D-A91B-1265C036A2AA&mode=link&guid=2e53fecc8c434067ae167ca08f224db9
Some of the issues around "smacking" & other forms of physical chastisement can be seen on this website www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2003/10/18406/28339 ;. No-one is legislating against a parents right to discipline their children, but the law does place sensible boundaries to ensure that parents do this responsibly.
Good to know, thanks
Just in case anyone had any doubts about the "smacking issue" - I see in the news that the High Court ruled yesterday that a couple that were banned from adopting by a local authority because they smacked their child have now been allowed to proceed with the adoption. The High Court said that the ban was "unreasonable" and "boardering on the bizarre". Good to know that at least our judicial system still maintains the right of parents not to be discriminated against if thet chose to discipline their children.
Case closed.
...yep - agreee with edit by Talk it out team - don't want to start slapping the wife around!
Sounds like you need to remind "the wife" what the boundaries are in your relationship regarding the children. [Removed inapppropriate content]
thanks Luke - at last some sense from a real parent!
Martin - you address one of the original poster's quations but not the other 2.....
1) Am I breaking the law? - Answer = no (as long as you are not being violent with/towards your boys - which from the original post does not seem to be the issue)
2) What right have these people running these sorts of courses got in causing distress to me and my wife? - Answer - none
Yes couples need to connect - and this couple were for a considerable time until "someone" butted in with their own liberal agenda and brought confusion to how they were parenting. The site is also meant to be a place "Where parents work it out" - I've not seen much about this in the forum as yet.
Parenting is a challenging, complicated, wonderful, mystical experience that is shared by a couple as they seek to raise their children as best they can. In order to help couples who are parents then parenting issues must be addressed. Disciplining of children (including the "smacking issue") cannot be shyed away from - nor how external influences on a parenting relationship often cause unnecessary stress. I am pleased that there is a fair amount of support in this discussion in support of smacking and the right for parents to get on with things without interference from others and the state.
Luke (learning father of two, 11 & 7 - who has occasionally smacked!)
Well it's nice to see somebody referring back to the original message (in the comment before last). Shame they've got the wrong end of the stick. The wife would not have totally changed her mind in response to a third party - she must have had doubts before but found it hard to express them. I'm sure many wives (and husbands) can understand that feeling.
If you actually read the first post, it ends 'Most importantly how can I get our relationship back on track and stop us rowing about it all?' Most of the responses don't seem to be trying to help this at all. They are all trying to 'win' the argument, convincing one partner or other that they're right and they must not give in. This seems designed to make the argument worse, showing no respect for the feelings of the other half and preventing them from discussing what is going on for each other and reaching a mutual understanding. Theyare never going to totally agree about this, but at least they might learn more about why each other feels that way, respect their differences and find a way of dealing with their kids that they can both handle.
Isn't this site meant to be about couples connecting, not driving them back into their different corners?
Martin
I was smacked on the hand by my mum as a child and don't have anything against it. It has not made me into a violent person. I think that you can use smacking or not. It is much more important that you disipline your child in a way in which it is clear to your child when they have done something wrong, what they did wrong and why and that ultimatly and more importantly, you will always still love and care for them. Obviously smacking in anger and in a way that does any harm to them, i.e. will still hurt after a few moments, is probably too much in my opinion!
Never heard so much bileous rubbish than in the last post. Completely misses the point.
To assert that smaking produces "long term emotional harm" is just not borne out by the research evidence. This type of thinking is what is contributing to the breakdown of family life and discipline in our society.
The right for parents to dicipline and raise their children as they see fit must be maintained and protected in our society if we are to have any chance of raising a more disciplined generation.
Convince us that the liberal approach to raising children over the past 30-40 years has not equated to more unruly children and the need for ASBOS and maybe we'll listen to your argument.
Also, to imply that parents who smack cannot be considered be loving and respected by their children - or who are not considered sensitive and compassionate by them, are ignorant comments in the extreme!
The point raised in the original post in respect to the couple relationship is how the intereference of a 3rd party instilling a change/alien value (in this case "it is wrong to smack") into a relationship causes unnecessary strife. The wife has been influenced (unecessarily) to change how the couple were parenting their boys. She should ignore this external "advice".
I really can't agree with the majority of views offered here. Just consider the following..
When you make a mistake at work or upset your partner or friends, is it acceptable for them to give you a smack? Do you go around smacking adults in an attempt to "help them learn"?If smacking is so effective in changing behaviour, why do advocates above still have naughty children - have they stopped being "extremely rude" for example?Give a child a slap "when all else fails"? Does this suggest that the slap will be successful? What if it isn't - punch them? Who has failed here? I would suggest the parent has failed to manage the situation efectively - maybe they should give themelves a slap? That'll teach 'em!"Smacking" is different to "hitting"? How much physical harm do you think a grown adult can do to a child with the palm of their hand? And what about the emotional effect this may have on them, long after the sting has gone, the bruises have cleared, the child has grown up, left home and their parents have died?
To the original poster: so if your mates do it, it must be ok then? Maybe some of them cheat on their wives/partners, fiddle their expenses or drive too fast in built up areas too? Or maybe their wives cheat on them so maybe your wife would think that's ok for her too? I guess you'd be ok with that?I'm guessing your wife went to the course voluntarily and she has taken on what she has learned voluntarily, so you can't blame the people on the course for interfering with your relationship.
My last point - do you want your children to love and respect you for your sensitivity, skill and compassion as a parent and human being, or do you want to risk them growing to fear and despise you and to respect your violence, but not your counsel. Worse still for them to mature into parents whose children also fear and despise them because they didn't know any better than what you their own parent had done to them?
I'm not a lefty or a liberal, just someone who knows that there are better ways of supporting long term behaviour change instead of long term emotional harm.
Of course it's OK to smack, so long as it is controlled and not backed with anger. Your wife has no doubt fallen victim to the PC police who are a noisy minority. It is this very act of removing harsh punishment from children that is creating the total lack of respect that so manhy youths have today. My kids are slapped for extreme rudeness (as boys do) and go to a school that is very harsh on disclipline. They are happy, healthy and naughty - just like I was, and just as they are meant to be. The difference is that they know right from wrong and respect those around them.
Despite what the lefties say, the old ways are still the best ! Good luck, and dont let them drag you down. Being a dad is very difficult and thankless. The only reward is when the kids get to about 25 and you realise what a fab job you have done, so may dad tells me !
This is obviouisly a case of the "Nnanny State" telling us parents what we can and cannot do in the bringing up of our chiudren. Tell your wife to forget the advice of this pathetic course she has been on and get on with your family life as it was before. Get her to realise that these "teachings" have caused unharmony in your family life and noone has the right to interfere with your family if you are not doing anything illegal. Show her these posts if need be but get real!
Many of these comments seem to me just to prove what an emotive subject this is and how hard it is to listen to the other point of view. Surely the point here not to prove anyone right, but to find a way of working together as a couple. This is not going to happen unless you can find a way of listening to each other and respecting each other's viewpoint, even if you don't share it.
It seemed to me that you had largely been in agreement until she went on this course. Is that right? Or was she really not that happy with it and just going along with it, despite her concerns. Perhaps she just kept quiet because she thought you wouldn't listen? You could check with her.
Now it sounds as if she is not respecting your views. It might have taken a lot of courage for her to disagree with you and she might be afraid that talking about it to you will weaken her resolve about something that sounds really important to you. Try reassuring her that you will really listen to her and be ready to find adifferent way of tackling the discipline issues. If you try less smacking andfeel the kids' behaviour changes for the worse, don't just say "I told you so", see if you can work together to find other forms of discipline that work better.
I was smacked by my mum as a child and actually thought it showed she cared about me. I used to smack my oldest daughter occasionally when she was young and I think my wife was always anxious about it, but I scared myself when I accidentally hurt my daughter once (she was off balance and fell) and stopped doing it nearly as much. My youngest daughter only remembers ever being smacked once and describes it now as 'pathetic' - apparently it didn't hurt her at all.
Now, as a grandparent, I'm glad she says that and I no longer see smacking as necessary. But it took me a long time and a scare to learn that. perhaps you can do it without the scare.
There is nothing wrong with giving a child a slap when all else fails. This is not abuse - it is training. We are punished by law if we misbehave as adults and need to learn quite early that we are responsible for our actions. In my day our parents gave us a slap, the teacher gave us the cane and the local policeman clipped us around the ear if we were caught doing something we knew we shouldn't. Just look at my generation and compare it with the youngsters of today and you have your answer.
I was smacked (on the bottom, and not hard) when I was younger and it never did me any harm - physically or emotionally! 'Smacking' is different to 'hitting' in any case. I knew when I was smacked I had crossed the line and was being very naughty indeed! My partner and I have discussed what we will do when we have kids and both agree that in the right circumstances of extreme bad behaviour it can work.
I guess the question for you Anonymous is can you and your partner reach a common ground and compromise? That seems to be the issue rather than the thing itself?
Nothing wrong with giving a child an occasional smack - it's not against the law either, as some would have us believe!
Of course you are doing wrong - what on earth makes you think that it is acceptable to hit a child! It is never acceptable to hit a child :-(
The way we as individuals decide how to bring up our children is often greatly influenced by our own childhood experiences. Each partner in a couple will have had a different upbringing from the other and sometimes very different. The most important thing is to work it out together. Spending time talking and really listening to each other is crucial and will considerably enhance the quality of a relationship. Raising children can often be the hardest task we are ever asked to perform and yet can also be the most rewarding. All parents want to do the best for their children yet as we all know they don’t come with an instruction manual. The general view is that there are more effective methods of discipline than smacking which will have benefits for the whole family. The good news is that today there is a wealth of knowledge easily available in the form of recognised parenting organisations and books in the shops, e.g. Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph..Again, the best for you as a couple and for your children is that you do it together.